April 08, 2008
Exposed to the Light
In our recent newsletter a reference is made about some people in the older age group who, “…grumble in dark corners of the church…” Hmm…I suppose at one time or another, regardless of age, we’ve all been in that dark corner. It seems to me that many folks are now coming out of the shadows and bringing with them the same burdens and concerns they’ve been discussing in those dark corners. Personally I think if the grumblings are truly heard in the light there would be some people who wish they could stuff them back into that dark corner.
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9 comments:
Hi Gail,
I wanted to ask if I am drawing my own conclusions (not having the availability to have read it myself) ...is the newsletter now being used to manipulate and rebuke the Body? It's now been moved beyond the accusing from the pulpit? I am confused about the fact that ministry staff is coming down on this whole "gossip" thing. I don't even think I could count all of the times this has been referenced in sermons in the past few years. In the church we attended for many years before we moved here, we heard that sermon when we got to that point in scripture…not every time the pastor was upset about something someone MAY have said. But, then again, we did have a pastor that loved, heard, and was available to his flock. Yet, it seems to me that they are also working off the rumor mill themselves as they are not asking any of these people in the Body what their concerns may be (which is obviously what is causing the hurts and the concerns and the "whispering") They're just passive-aggressively telling them to button it. It almost feels as though it has been a misalignment of scripture to get their own way and just have the brethren sit quietly in the pews. Something about all of this kind of brings Matthew 23 to mind. But...I could totally be off the mark on all of this. Please forgive me if I am.
Sincerely,
Sister Anonymous
Hey Sis,
Nice to hear from you again.
I feel your conclusions about the newsletter are correct, except that it’s not a ‘new’ strategy to use it as a tool for manipulating and correcting the Body. When I read some of these pointed messages I think, hmm, wonder who’s in trouble this time.
I believe we are getting more pressure, both in the pulpit and in print, because past methods of control are becoming less and less effective.
It’s not uncommon, but it is sad when pastors insert personal jabs at someone or something into the sermon. I agree, it’s a misalignment of Scripture. We in the pew (and the elders) are at fault for not holding the messenger accountable, but I suppose it will continue as long as we tolerate it.
I would agree with you on Matthew 23. I applaud you for going to the Word to get a better understanding.
Gail
Thank you Gail,
You are right. It is our tolerance that allows this behavior to continue. The bummer part is that so many are afraid to step up as others have done. To be painted as dissenters, because they definitely make an example of you and it seems they are willing to misuse scripture to do it. They have become so adept at this misalignment; it is easy to make one look to be the un-Godly fool. Do you know anyone that has gone to the elders or pastors that is not being systematically, discredited, destroyed and booted out in one way or another?
Additionally, there are so many pew sitters that don't know God's Word. So they don't know what to stand up for or many times whether there’s even a problem. If the pastor or other leadership (that is supposed to be mature) tells these people something, they eat it up. They are not Berean's because they don't know that they can be....because they're not committed to learning the Word! That church population seems to be growing, while the Word seekers are shrinking away because they feel like they can’t change anything. I know some of that can be in any church, but I also think it should be a message to the elders that the new, innovative ideas to teach are simply failing, as the church becomes a more scripturally emaciated group.
As a body we never should have allowed men that didn’t meet ALL of the scriptural qualifications to be a part of the eldership, that’s on us. I don't even remember anything about the qualifications and they’re meeting them, ever coming up before the vote. I wonder; do these men really understand the degree of accountability that they will face for the job title they've been willing to take? I think possibly not.
Sister Anonymous
Hey Sis,
No, as a matter of fact I don’t know anyone who’s gone to the leadership and come out unscathed.
There are those in the pews that are knowledgeable of God’s Word, but they can’t even entertain the idea that their leaders aren’t looking out for their spiritual interests.
Yes, to a degree Word seekers are shrinking - in so far as they are relocating to churches where they can grow in the Word. It should be a message to the elders, but it’s apparently one they do not want to hear.
As to your final thoughts – well spoken, I couldn’t agree more.
Gail
It is amazing how arm chair christians sit in the pew, gossip,slander and grumble and then say the pastors and elders are at fault. We say we love Jesus and then smile, while among brothers and sisters the arm chair christians are stabbing one another with gossip, judgment,accusations all in the name of Jesus. I would bet you have even experienced hurt from believers. Then they say we are scriptual and they are not! No wonder the lost and secular world says if thats christianity I want no part of that.. There is much wrong in the world and it is easy to focus on what is wrong.
I read in the Bible how flawed the men of God were. David,Moses,Elijah,Peter,Saul, King Soleman an so on. Yet I and apparently you people have unreal expectations that those alive today will live at a holier level then the men of faith written about in the Bible. Of course we do and then here comes the resentment,slander,dis unity and gossip brought about by our unreal expectations.(Ish 58)... All in the name of We Know JESUS better than those people.
I will answer for what I did in the name of Christ and not by pointing at others flaws/sins. Do you know anyone that has not sinned? Have you not sinned?
For I have sinned, forgive me Lord....
A sinner saved by grace...
Hi Anonymous,
Thanks for joining the discussion. I’ve run into some arm chair Christians, but thankfully not in the trenches.
You’re right, I’ve experienced hurt from believers and ashamedly, I’ve also caused hurt to other believers. Neither is right, but grace covers both.
Let me take your list of flawed Biblical characters and make another observation. If some scribe had gone through Scripture and sanitized it by removing all the examples of flawed characters, we would have been led to believe that these guys were perfect and that we could never measure up to them. I’m grateful we know these men, warts and all. Regardless of their flaws, they all humbled themselves before God…even if they had to give it a little thought first.
No doubt some people do have unreal expectations of other believers, however that should not be confused with having biblical expectations, which applies to all believers.
By the way I did read Isaiah 58.
Have I sinned? Every day. Maybe if I just stayed in bed it would be easier.
Please write again, it’s always good to hear other voices.
Gail
Anonymous I and Anonymous II;
-----Scripture tells us on what basis we will be saved. It tells us on what basis we shall live in Him. It is given that weight of authority by God who has the right and the place to give it. We can speak all we want about how perfect one’s behavior must be (which I do not believe Anonymous I meant,) but at the end of the thought the depth of His grace must be referenced. We can speak all we want about the depth of His grace, but in the end, we must admit grace is not license to sin. Those are the bounds set upon us by the Word. Within those bounds, the Word calls upon men, mature in the new life, to become leaders and examples among the rest of us. Although these men are not perfect, Anonymous II, which end of the two bounds do you believe the Word expects them to press towards? I think so too, godliness.
-----Now, the Bible also recognizes that some leaders may hang a bit closer to the other boundary, the possibility Anonymous II has offered. But concerning those leaders, the Word calls for open public rebuke (I Tim. 5:19-21). What about the particular leaders of whom we are speaking? Read James 2:9, then ponder why those of your church are in a dark corner grumbling. Look at what these leaders did to the popular and beneficial service Gail was doing with the weekly news page. That was shear partisanship. They were jealous over the voice to the grumblers Gail was and they themselves were not. And they were twice as opposed to the strengthening of the spiritual nostalgia that it served. The leaders’ partisanship shone clearly in their jealousy of Gail’s time being spent with the “grumblers,” and not in their own presence. So they stepped on her ministry and squashed it. Thank God, she was too strong to squash with it.
-----Is that enough, Anonymous II? When another person became sick and tired of their unfettered favoritism, he wrote them over and over for six years, calling them to serve also the others, the “grumblers,” or at least to come to an open, loving, and honest debate about the sin in their partisan services. Others were also addressing the same issue. But the leaders refused. They denied. They plugged their ears and acted like no one was there. Until one decided he had been to them enough in private regarding their sin. After approaching the church through a rather voluminous letter, this person saw first hand the deceitfulness of the elders. In their meeting they revealed their knowledge of the many others who were confronting them over the same issue. One leader even admitted some elder meetings were bogged down by so many letters of the sort. Having admitted this, they wrote to the church claiming this person was on a “one man crusade,” implying that he was alone in his sentiments. In short, they lied. And that was done in response to having been publicly called on their sin of partisanship. Theirs is beyond humble, innocent mistake.
-----What Anonymous I proposes is what Paul proposes. These men must be called forth and rebuked for their partisanship and their lies, publicly. This behavior goes beyond the pale of simple mistake. And if we continue to excuse our responsibility to step forward and call them, then what is today egregious error will tomorrow become common hubris. That is how we slowly, but consistently, move from bad to worse.
-----No, anonymous II, we are not expecting holier men than those of faith written about in the Bible. We are simply looking for men holier than are these leaders. And I assure you, there is plenty of difference between the holiness of these men and the holiness of our Biblical characters. Many others could be found between the two.
Spoken in love, spoken in truth
Steve Corey
Ya know what, Anonymous, you are right...my comment about the pew sitters was totally pious, self righteous and judgemental. Forgive me. I was wrong to say that about others knowledge, hearts and intentions. I should refrain from such judgments and labels.
I AM a sinner in need of grace all day long for sure, and I still have a lot to learn myself.
I should have stuck to by biggest concerns and facts that prompted my writing.
I don't expect unrealistic perfection. However, let's not be blind to the fact that the church is not very healthy right now and we need to ask some questions. I'm also not saying that only the leadership is at fault, the body needs to claim some responsibility for our mistakes also, which I've already addressed some. (But I'm sure there are more.)
Why have we gone from over 900 attenders to around half of that in a short couple of years? I know people come and go, but is that a lot? They're moving back to two services. Why are people leaving? Why are the "old-timers" leaving?
Are people's needs being met? Are people being allowed to use their gifts to minister to them for their needs? Are we showing love? Should we be concerned about them leaving, or should we say there's the door if you not happy? (That's not without acknowledging that you can't please everyone.)
Why are so many of our brothers and sisters feeling hurt? Where are the hurts coming from?
I know that many are wanting to simply expose things to the light. Sometimes our sin nature gets in the way and we don't all do it perfectly. We all flub up so many things don't we. When is it o.k. to face a problem and when is it simply grumbling and gossiping? When the concerns are brought to leadership is there any working together? How do we make things better? Will it all just go away if we ignore it?
Was everything I just wrote perfect? I'm betting not.
With some regrets,
Sister Anonymous
Thank you Steve,
I always really appreciate what you have to say, I sent my last post before yours came in.
God Bless,
Sister Anonymous (aka Anonymous I)
all these anonymous's get a bit confusing :).
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